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#1  2008-07-07 17:19:48

Jens
PS3 Newbie In Training
Registered: 2008-07-07
Posts: 5

DVD-Audio playback by hack?

This thread here suggests DVD-Audio playback should probably be feasible on PS3 even though Sony doesn't offer it.

Has anyone got (PC) DVD-Audio playback software that could be ported to Linux for PS3?

Sounds like an interesting challenge..

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#2  2008-07-07 19:35:38

Powerslave
Ruler of All
From: Alpha Quadrant
Registered: 2007-01-15
Posts: 11210
Website

Re: DVD-Audio playback by hack?

PS3 plays SACD from the XMB with the exception of The 40GB units (all regions) DO NOT offer SACD playback AT ALL.  That is the CECHG, and CECHH models.   SO, Linux won't support it EVER, because the BR-D drive will not recognize it.   That will be the same with Audio-DVD, and from what I read, PS3 doesn't support it, so you won't get it from LINUX, because the DRIVE ITSELF won't recognize the format.  You can't make a drive read an unsupported format from any software.

They are also talking about SACD, so I got info on that too.

SACD is supported on: CECHB, CECHA, CECHC, CECHE, and CECHF models.

Wonder of the people at that LINK you provided are aware the 40GB units won't even recogniza a SACD disc, period.

You can look at the side of the PS3 at this label:
http://www.ps3sacd.com/images/logos_incl_SACD.jpg
If you have the SACD logo, then it is supported.

System software v1.80 introduced a ‘bitmapping’ option.
V1.90 added an alternative bitmapping setting, plus an upsampling option CD, enabling conversion from 44.1 to 88.2 or 176.4 kHz. The latter only works via HDMI.
V2.00 introduced optical output for SA-CD. Initially it offered a choice between conversion to DTS multichannel and PCM stereo but as of v2.01 only the latter remains.
V2.10 featured yet an additional bitmapping setting.

What about the CD layer of a hybrid SA-CD? The ‘red book’ audio or ‘CD-DA’ layer you can import but with an SA-CD you can only access this when under System Settings ‘Disc Auto-Start’ is switched off.

Why did Sony take SA-CD out of PS3 again? Sony is under strong pressure to reduce the cost of the console and SA-CD playback is simply not a function that’s essential to game play (unlike Blu-ray Disc playback, PS3 games are published on BD-ROM discs); so it’s not even related. Did it save cost? I would not think so, really, it's an optical drive issue... Perhaps the elimination of SA-CD allowed use of cheaper PCM DACs (Digital-to-Analog Converters) instead of DSD DACs but this is unlikely since PS3 can convert DSD to PCM in software. Also decompression of DST to DSD it can handle in software too. So rather than in the ‘back end’ of the hardware, the cost reduction more likely lies in the ‘front end’, in the circuitry needed in the optical drive for dealing with SA-CD’s unique copy protection techniques. However, lacking solid information about this means we can only speculate why it was removed.

This means, if the SYSTEM doesn't even support it, you WILL NOT get it from Linux, you can't because there is no hardware number one, or firmware support.

DVD-Audio?  Nothing like SACD, as far as protection and file system.  DVD-A is a digital format for delivering very high-fidelity audio content on a DVD. DVD-Audio includes no video.  PS3 also supports this format, and should be in ALL models.   IT is basically the same as a CD, it just supports better audio like DD5.1, DTS, and more tracks.  Audio on a DVD-Audio disc can be stored in many different bit-rate/sampling rate/channel combinations.  DVD-Audio is in a format war with Super Audio CD... 

A project called "DVD audio Tools" provides free/open source DVD-Audio authoring tools for Linux. However, the PS3 optical drive won't recognize the disc, so you won't get it from any software.

IF anyone CARED to read the specs, people would have their answers:

SUPPORTED FORMATS:
CD PlayStation CD-ROM, PlayStation 2 CD-ROM, CD-DA, CD-DA (ROM), CD-R, CD-RW, SACD,
SACD Hybrid (CD layer), SACD HD, DualDisc, DualDisc (audio side), DualDisc (DVD side) (No SACD 40GiB Model. 

DVD: PlayStation 2 DVD-ROM, PlayStation 3 DVD-ROM, DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW.

Blu-ray Disc: PlayStation 3 BD-ROM, BD-Video, BD-ROM, BD-R, BD-RE

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#3  2008-07-08 03:16:37

Jens
PS3 Newbie In Training
Registered: 2008-07-07
Posts: 5

Re: DVD-Audio playback by hack?

Powerslave wrote:

PS3 plays SACD from the XMB with the exception of The 40GB units (all regions) DO NOT offer SACD playback AT ALL.  That is the CECHG, and CECHH models.   SO, Linux won't support it EVER, because the BR-D drive will not recognize it.

Wait, stop! I wasn't suggesting with Linux you could add SACD support to the 40GB models, and nor is this thread. The thread started about the question whether on the SACD-compatible models (20/60/80GB) you could access SACD data under Linux.

Further on, the question is added whether DVD-Audio playback might be possible under Linux.

That will be the same with Audio-DVD, and from what I read, PS3 doesn't support it, so you won't get it from LINUX, because the DRIVE ITSELF won't recognize the format.  You can't make a drive read an unsupported format from any software.

Of course, but a DVD-Audio is basically nothing else than a DVD-ROM disc with (up to) 5.1-channel, 24-bit, 96/192 kHZ PCM audio on it, plus Dolby Digital and/or DTS (just like a DVD-Video is basically a DVD-ROM disc with MPEG2 video and specific audio on it). All these elements PS3 can handle, so why could it not in this particular combination?

They are also talking about SACD, so I got info on that too.
SACD is supported on: CECHB, CECHA, CECHC, CECHE, and CECHF models.
Wonder of the people at that LINK you provided are aware the 40GB units won't even recognize a SACD disc, period.

If you mean the PS3 SACD site itself they've got an entry in the FAQ called "Do all PS3s play SA-CD?" starting "Not anymore" and listing a table with an overview. There's also a explanation guessing why it was dropped.
If you mean the people posting in this thread we can only guess but they seem quite well informed and anyway SACD playback on the 40GB version was not the point.

By the way, there is also such a thing as a DSD Disc, basically a self-recorded DVD with DSD audio on it. I think even the 40GB model supports that, even though it doesn't with SACD, but I still have to prove this in practice. I've got a 60GB model myself.

Last edited by Jens (2008-07-08 04:12:09)

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#4  2008-07-08 08:26:02

Powerslave
Ruler of All
From: Alpha Quadrant
Registered: 2007-01-15
Posts: 11210
Website

Re: DVD-Audio playback by hack?

Well, as I said, DVD-A is not supported.  The drive, that being the PS3s Blu-Ray drive, does not recognize the DVD-A when you put it in, so, you can't read what it doesn't support.   The PS3 won't care that you said "ALL IT IS, IS...." You simply can't force the drive to recognize it using software.  You would need a firmware change to get the drive to recognize it.  Since there is a format war between SACD and DVD-A, Sony chose SACD.

I only put in SACD information because that thread you pointed to was also referencing it.

My post also says WHY SACD was dropped, I have it all there, you repeating it doesn't change anything.

I wrote:

Why did Sony take SA-CD out of PS3 again? Sony is under strong pressure to reduce the cost of the console and SA-CD playback is simply not a function that’s essential to game play (unlike Blu-ray Disc playback, PS3 games are published on BD-ROM discs); so it’s not even related. Did it save cost? I would not think so, really, it's an optical drive issue... Perhaps the elimination of SA-CD allowed use of cheaper PCM DACs (Digital-to-Analog Converters) instead of DSD DACs but this is unlikely since PS3 can convert DSD to PCM in software. Also decompression of DST to DSD it can handle in software too. So rather than in the ‘back end’ of the hardware, the cost reduction more likely lies in the ‘front end’, in the circuitry needed in the optical drive for dealing with SA-CD’s unique copy protection techniques. However, lacking solid information about this means we can only speculate why it was removed.

There is is, we know that already...

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#5  2008-07-08 13:05:57

Jens
PS3 Newbie In Training
Registered: 2008-07-07
Posts: 5

Re: DVD-Audio playback by hack?

Powerslave wrote:

Well, as I said, DVD-A is not supported.  The drive, that being the PS3s Blu-Ray drive, does not recognize the DVD-A when you put it in, so, you can't read what it doesn't support.   The PS3 won't care that you said "ALL IT IS, IS...." You simply can't force the drive to recognize it using software.  You would need a firmware change to get the drive to recognize it.  Since there is a format war between SACD and DVD-A, Sony chose SACD.

I think it's not that straightforward. DVD-Audio content and DVD-Video content are basically specific files in specific folders on a DVD-ROM disc. The DVD family of standards also allows a combination of these, thus creating a hybrid DVD-Audio/Video disc. A DVD-Video player (and consequently also PS3) will not reject such a disc; it may merely ignore the DVD-Audio content.

My idea is: If under Linux you have access at file level and you've got these codecs (in software) at hand, it ought to be possible -- unless there's something I'm overlooking. The only thing I can think of is CPPM copy protection but that's been cracked, just like DVD-Video's CSS before it. There are lots of DVD-Audio rippers for PC.

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#6  2008-07-08 15:31:10

ERIFNOMI
PS3 Hacks - I'm Totally In!
From: The Moon
Registered: 2007-04-11
Posts: 1488

Re: DVD-Audio playback by hack?

I believe Powerslave is right.  You're pretty close to saying you should be able to play a HDDVD on a blu-ray player becuase they use the same codecs and both have a blue laser.  If you reseach a little bit you will learn that A SACD is similar to DVD-A.  Much the way Blu-Ray is similar to HDDVD.

Powerslave wrote:

SUPPORTED FORMATS:
CD PlayStation CD-ROM, PlayStation 2 CD-ROM, CD-DA, CD-DA (ROM), CD-R, CD-RW, SACD,
SACD Hybrid (CD layer), SACD HD, DualDisc, DualDisc (audio side), DualDisc (DVD side) (No SACD 40GiB Model.

DVD: PlayStation 2 DVD-ROM, PlayStation 3 DVD-ROM, DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW.

Blu-ray Disc: PlayStation 3 BD-ROM, BD-Video, BD-ROM, BD-R, BD-RE

Are there any PS3 games on a DVD?

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#7  2008-07-08 15:54:15

Jens
PS3 Newbie In Training
Registered: 2008-07-07
Posts: 5

Re: DVD-Audio playback by hack?

ERIFNOMI wrote:

I believe Powerslave is right.  You're pretty close to saying you should be able to play a HDDVD on a blu-ray player becuase they use the same codecs and both have a blue laser.  If you reseach a little bit you will learn that A SACD is similar to DVD-A.  Much the way Blu-Ray is similar to HDDVD.

But of course, if you research deeper you'll learn that BD and HD-DVD are physically quite different formats, for instance in terms of the depth of the disc substrate and the require numerical aperture of the laser objective (not to mention differences at application level like iHD vs BD-Java). DVD-A, DVD-V and DVD-ROM however are by definition the same physical format.  The only difference is at data level, and possibly the copy protection scheme but neither at physical level nor, I think, at logical level. CPPM is somewhat more sophisticated than CSS.

SACD is similar to DVD-A in the sense that an SACD is almost a DVD-ROM disc with DSD data on it but with two important differences:
1) there's the option of the hybrid disc with RBCD on the other layer
2) there's some proprietary, intentional deviation from the regular DVD-ROM format that requires special hardware in the drive to read it -- the piece that almost certainly was left out of the 40GB model.

For SACD the question is whether a PS3 that can the disc format (i.e. a 20/60/80GB model) can make the DSD data accessible at OS level. Surely not out-of-the-box but who knows what can be circumvented.
For DVD-Audio the question is basically the same, except the 40GB need not be excepted. Anyway, I guess I should really install Linux and start experimenting. I was just hoping to find people here who might have looked into these matters already.

Are there any PS3 games on a DVD?

As far as I'm aware there are not: even titles that would fit on a DVD or even a CD are put on BD-ROM, probably to make it more difficult to copy them. It may also help ramp up BD replication volumes quicker, in order to help achieve economies of scale.

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#8  2008-07-08 16:00:43

ERIFNOMI
PS3 Hacks - I'm Totally In!
From: The Moon
Registered: 2007-04-11
Posts: 1488

Re: DVD-Audio playback by hack?

I know there are physical differences in Blu-ray and HDDVD which is why I made point to add the phrase Pretty Close  Maybe I should go with a more familiar phrase.  Apples and Oranges.  They're similar yet they still have their differences.  BTW...How many audio DVDs do you have?  I might have one.  Then again it might be a regular conventional Video DVD that cam along with the CD.

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#9  2008-07-08 16:11:12

Powerslave
Ruler of All
From: Alpha Quadrant
Registered: 2007-01-15
Posts: 11210
Website

Re: DVD-Audio playback by hack?

You will not get DVD-A from Linux, PERIOD.  If you want to think you can, well, then waste all the time you want trying to do it.  I'm out...

The ONLY difference between a Movie on BR-D, and HD-DVD is the physical format, the DATA is the same.  Maybe we can access the HD-DVD through Linux?  Bwaaaa, haa haa haaa.....

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#10  2008-07-08 16:32:24

Jens
PS3 Newbie In Training
Registered: 2008-07-07
Posts: 5

Re: DVD-Audio playback by hack?

ERIFNOMI wrote:

I know there are physical differences in Blu-ray and HDDVD which is why I made point to add the phrase Pretty Close  Maybe I should go with a more familiar phrase.  Apples and Oranges.  They're similar yet they still have their differences.

Ok, I got it. Then again, you can't cross apples and oranges while DVD-A and DVD-V are so closely related they can be combined on a single layer of a single disc without having to resort to exotic deviations of the standard like you'd need to do with BD and HD-DVD. Warner's Total HD was such a monster.

Anyway, I'll rest my case until I have further proof. Too bad I'm not experienced enough to do such a thing like porting a DVD-A playback stack from PC to PS3.

BTW...How many audio DVDs do you have?  I might have one.  Then again it might be a regular conventional Video DVD that cam along with the CD.

I've got six or seven, waiting in shrinkwrap until my SACD player breaks down and is replaced by a dual format player. I've got another handful on my wishlist which I may buy once I can actually play them. Agreed, not that many that it justifies a lot of effort but the thrill would, wouldn't it? Especially after so many people said it couldn't be done ;-)

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#11  2008-07-08 22:30:48

attanasi0
PS3 Hacks Guru
From: Montréal
Registered: 2007-07-12
Posts: 77
Website

Re: DVD-Audio playback by hack?

Hey guys, the guy has a point.
A DVD-A, DVD-V and DVD-ROM are all the same physical disc.
Just like BD-R, BD-RE and BD-V, which all blueray players could potentially read.


It's very interesting in my opinion, even though the only actual DVD-A that I have is Love by the Beatles.


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